Top Mistakes CMOs in B2B SaaS Companies Make

Ian (00:02.274)
All right, hey everyone, my name is Ian Binek founder of Optimize Your Marketing, and we are on the Optimize Your Marketing podcast today with Ben Scandlen the CEO of Mosaic Growth Solutions. Ben, how are you doing today?

Ben Scandlen (00:14.222)
Hello. I am terrific. I love to talk about marketing, so I'm excited about this. Any opportunity?

Ian (00:19.564)
Nice hat.

Ian (00:26.222)
We're so happy to have you. I mean, you have like a wealth of experience here. And so some of the questions that we're going to be covering today are going to be all about fractional CMO things. We're going to be talking about the B2B SaaS space and the marketing text and what we think is actually going to be happening there. And then my three favorite questions, which we will cover later, but I asked them to all of our guests and I'm really excited to hear Ben's response to them. So we actually have a ton to cover. So Ben, are you ready to get started?

Ben Scandlen (00:55.246)
Let's do this. Let's do this, Ian.

Ian (01:01.43)
Awesome. All right, Ben. So as I mentioned, I really want to talk about fractional CMO things, especially just right now in 2024. I mean, the role has evolved so much in the past couple of years, and I know that you've been providing fractional CMO services to clients for years now. So I'd love to kind of hear your opinion on where you think it's actually heading, especially now in 2024 and just onwards 2025.

in many years in the future. So Ben, what do you think about fractional CMO right now?

Ben Scandlen (01:33.154)
All right. Yeah. I mean, I will say, there's a lot of fractional CMOs out there. I mean, I think every, like every other profile I see on LinkedIn is about someone's a fractional CMO. I think that's challenging, because you don't really know what that means when so many people are fractional CMOs. And I mean, I dig it. I like, I love the idea that people are able to, you know, share their knowledge with these companies that are able to, you know, participate in this marketplace as fractional CMOs. But I think that.

you know, what a fractional CMO has become a little bit blurred because there's so many fractional CMOs out there. And the other thing I think about, DataBox actually did some research in terms of fractional CMOs. And I thought this interest, this research was really interesting because it talked to both the companies and the fractional CMOs. And my concern with a lot, you know, with the fractional CMO spaces are fractional CMOs being set up for success because you look at this research and what you,

what the companies were looking for was like, hey, what do you want out of your fractional CMO? And basically they're saying like, we want growth. And so, which is great. I mean, of course all these companies want growth, but then when you looked at like what they're actually wanted from them, it was like digital marketing. And then you look through some of the other things that they were not as interested in. It would be things like strategy and, you know, you know, product and, you know, working with the employees. And so I think about that research and we've seen similar things before, which is like,

You want growth, but then you go and take away some of the most important components of growth from the fraction, from the fractional CMO. And it's not going to work out if you're saying like, Hey, we want you to drive growth, but we don't want you to focus on brand. And we're not going to integrate you into the strategy and you know, product market fit. That's not an area of responsibility. And they're not going to be really leading the team. That's a recipe for failure.

quite honestly, and I think we do see that out there, that the fractional CMOs are not set up for success. And so this is important both from the fractional CMO's perspective, but also the company's perspective. As you go into these relationships, make sure that you have a clear understanding of like, this is what I need to be successful. And so I think working that out, like understanding exactly what a fractional CMO provides, because there are so many people with the title fractional CMO out there, but then also working with the company.

Ben Scandlen (03:53.838)
to say like, this is what I need to be successful is gonna be really critical to making this role work.

Ian (04:04.398)
Yeah, Ben. That... Okay, so Warren, there's so many things that stood out to me there and I was kind of taking notes while you were talking, but the study with DataVox was really compelling. And I think that really just tells about everything you're just discussing here, where there's just a disconnect. There's no strategy that the fractional CMO is allowed to provide, which is pretty weird when you think about it. It's almost like they want a glorified...

Ben Scandlen (04:21.558)
Mm -hmm.

Ian (04:33.23)
do it all person. Someone comes in and they just do everything, which that's not what a fractional CMO is. Usually, their strong set is they have the experience, they have the strategy, they're able to come in and they know what needs to work. I think maybe a lot of these companies feel like they can just get a fractional CMO in and then they take care of everything because I think there has been a lot of fly -by -night agencies that have come through and that's what they say they do. They offer fractional CMO services.

And then they also say, and we'll do it all for you. But the thing is with those agencies is that they don't actually have that experience and they don't actually know the strategies that work. They're just kind of coming in and using the buzzword that's hot right now and closing those deals. So it's really cool to have someone that's been there, done that, they understand what needs to be done. And you completely understand that right now, like fractional CMO space is kind of in a weird spot.

So that's a really cool insight that you added.

Ben Scandlen (05:32.942)
No, I think the fractional and I really, and I, we do see this as I say, if you're not integrated, then you're not going to be successful. And so you may have to push on these doors to get them open. but if you don't put that work in, then it's just, I mean, you're going to take a check for a couple of months and then it's going to be over. and so I think really pushing these doors open to say like marketing needs to have a roller. I mean, I love marketing. I think marketing is amazing. And so to see it.

put on the sideline with these expectations, then put on the sideline within an organization and not be able to do what it's capable of doing. I mean, I don't like that just because I do think there's so much value in what we do in such an opportunity.

Ian (06:19.406)
Yeah, I love kind of how you mentioned you need to kick those doors down. I noticed that a lot with clients where they just don't want to talk about certain things, other parts of strategy they don't want to discuss. And I hate when that happens because although they're working with me for maybe a specific service, at the end of the day, I've kind of also kind of been there and done that with certain inbound mechanisms and also seeing how those outbound mechanisms.

Ben Scandlen (06:28.526)
Mm -hmm.

Ian (06:48.046)
impact those inbound. And so it really sucks whenever the client's just pushing against you and saying, hey, you're a contractor. You're not a strategic partner of my company. That feels bad. But then, yeah, okay, sure. I guess I'll collect the paycheck for a couple months. And then when something doesn't work, I will, I'm not going to say I told you so, but I told you so.

Ben Scandlen (07:08.59)
No, it's so true. I mean, I think what we, I mean, a frequent thing that happens is they're like, you don't need to talk to the sales team. I'm like, you have to be kidding me. Like sales and marketing alignment is the, I mean, we can drive leads, but if you're not aligned with the sales team, like if you're not, if we're not working collaboratively, it doesn't matter. And so it's like the sales teams over here. And I think this is the danger. Like if you're an internal CMO, you're obviously getting a lot more face to face or, you know, zoom calls with people.

But that's the danger is that it's like, okay, marketing is like you said, put over in the silo and you're not having a communication with the sales team. And like, I mean, that's just a very clear example of where you can be set up for failure. If you're driving these leads, you're not having these conversations with the sales team about how they get handed off. What's the SLA? Are they quality leads? It's not going to work. And so, I mean, it's going to, and obviously both sides of the equation want this to work. And so.

I think that's like a non -negotiable. You have to be like, we need to be integrated and be able to have these conversations. And the company hasn't done this before. I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of where I come from. We've done this a lot. Most of the time the company, this is the only time they've done it. And so they don't know, like when they think about it, it's like, we're going to do something easy and drive growth. But since we've done this over and over again, we know what it takes to be able to do this. And so I think to your point earlier, be able to provide that guidance on...

not just marketing, but how to make the relationship successful is critical.

Ian (08:42.478)
Yeah, I love that. I love that. I don't really have much to add. That makes perfect sense. So I want to go into our next question. And we're going to be talking about the B2B SaaS marketing industry as a whole and where you think that is heading since you've kind of seen it evolve over the past decade plus. I mean, where do you think that it's going, especially with the number of agencies that are entering it? I'm sure that there's a disproportionate number that are in the software space.

Ben Scandlen (08:47.118)
Amen.

Ian (09:12.11)
So do you think that it is a place that, well, I don't want to dictate what you're going to say here because I'd love to kind of leave this open -ended, but so let's start there. Where do you think the agency or where do you think the B2B SaaS space is going for marketing right now?

Ben Scandlen (09:21.454)
Yes, sir.

Ben Scandlen (09:27.47)
I mean, I say this all the time. If you ever watched my videos, I say this all the time. Like this is the best time ever to be in this space. It's the best time to be focused on growth. Like the tools are available, the technology, the networks that are available. They just didn't exist before. Like this is an awesome time. Like you can do so much more. You have the strategy, you're able to like deliver an impact much more effectively than you ever could before. And then the opportunities to learn from other people is like,

Every day I'm out there learning something new and it's things that, you know, I just wouldn't have been exposed to before. And so it's an amazing time to be in the space. Like I firmly believe this is amazing time, regardless of what the economy is, but this is just an amazing time to be in B2B marketing. I mean, I love it. It's the best. It's like, yeah, I've learned more in the past two years and I've learned, you know, through my other, you know, 20 plus years in marketing. So it's a terrific time to be in the space.

And the thing I'm excited about it though, is that I think there was a lot of focus, there was too much focus, as people like to say, over rotated. So I'm gonna use the kind of trendy term on performance marketing. I think there was a lot of, you know, what can we do from a tactic standpoint? What can we do from an optimization standpoint? What I dig is that people are focusing more on some of the foundational elements that have always been so critical, but people kind of moved away from them like,

focusing on things like, you know, developing a really compelling brand product market fit, you know, looking at brand awareness, vision, like these sort of core things I think people are coming back to in the marketing space, which I'm super excited about. Cause I think that foundation is the key to driving growth. Like you can optimize your optimization efforts are critical. I'm not discounting those at all, but that's just a part of the like growth pyramid. It's the top of the growth pyramid. It's probably the area you can actually have.

the least amount of like transformational impact, getting back to these foundational elements is great. And so I'm glad to see that there's some momentum that way.

Ian (11:35.31)
Yeah, I think, so again, similar to your first question, a lot of things stuck out to me, and so I'm going to break down a couple of them. Being in the space, okay, so you said it's the best time ever to be in the space. And as much as I, you know, all the knowledge I have, I guess, and experience I have, I would say that's true. Obviously, I haven't been around the block as long as you, but I will say this is that the technology...

Ben Scandlen (11:42.028)
Amen.

Ian (12:04.782)
like you mentioned, has never been more efficient for agencies and for sales and marketing to work together. Tools, to make a list, to go after your target ICP, it's never been easier to do that. There's so many lead repositories out there. And you just use a few tools together and maybe even throw some AI in there and you can send them very personalized messages on the whole email space.

And then that cold emailing also has a direct impact on your digital marketing efforts in the inbound space. So I agree with you. I definitely feel like it's a great space to be in. My question, follow -up question for you actually is this though, maybe to our agency owners that are listening, is do you feel like it's over saturated? Because, and I'll just add some context here in terms of the performance marketing, I guess that I kind of do a little bit.

is that when you go in Google, you go in Bing and you see the cost per clicks for some of these terms, B2B SaaS marketing agency, B2B SaaS PPC agency, they are very expensive. They're like $50 a click, maybe more. And it makes me wonder also from an SEO standpoint that are you going to be able to drive enough volume to your site through the traditional platforms of demand capture?

Ben Scandlen (13:15.598)
It's exactly what it is.

Ian (13:27.982)
Or does it really just come down to that foundational marketing tactics that you're talking about? So I'm kind of curious, like, what are your thoughts on all of this?

Ben Scandlen (13:35.948)
I mean, it definitely is. I mean, it definitely, I mean, everyone, I think I some the other day, it's like everyone can say they're a digital marker. Now you just have no, really no way of understanding. And it's interesting because it's, and it gets back to the point about fractional CMOS. I mean, I think it's really hard for companies to understand like what good looks like. And, and so it is oversaturated and it's really under, it's really hard.

to stand out and it's really hard. I mean, I trust is a critical factor here and with so many different players out there, it's building that trust or building a reputation for trust is harder. And I think, I mean, that's why I dig the thing that you're doing now, like this podcast, is like, I mean, I think focusing on building a brand, being distinctive within the space is gonna be absolutely critical. Like you have to have something that defines you.

of space because there's so many people who will say, we'll optimize your Google ads, we'll optimize your SEO. I mean, probably millions of people. I mean, you look on Upwork, I mean, you look all over the place, these people are out there. And so having a distinct perspective is going to be absolutely critical. I will be, I am curious though, is like, even from like building a brand perspective, I think there's a certain playbook out there that people are starting to follow. You know, how long will that last? You know, I think marketers are exceptional.

I think we'll talk about this a little bit more in the interview. Markers are exceptional at looking at what the latest thing is and then copying it, regardless of it, sometimes whether it works or not. And so it'll be interesting to see. I do think the playbook that people are starting to follow now, it's effective, like defining your brand, going on social, doing things like podcasts is effective and a great way to stand out because you're able to...

I think the benefit of like a podcast and video and things like that is that you're able to see your personality. You're able to see who you're going to be working with as opposed to like, you know, cold emails tough because that, you know, especially with AI, anyone can basically generate the same thing. I think these like sort of distinct platforms will allow you to share your personality and which people can engage with. But it'll be interesting to see does this get played out too? I don't know the answer to that. I think.

Ben Scandlen (15:52.718)
I mean, I always think there's gonna be a place to deliver meaningful, distinctive content that's beneficial to the end user. But I mean, I think this specific playbook that I see a lot of people following, how long will that, what's the runway on that?

Ian (16:09.302)
Yeah, that's really cool. I like the answer. You don't really have the best answer in terms of the keys. You don't know. You don't know what's going to happen. But what you are saying is to make the most of the situation, like agency owners can still thrive in this environment. You just have to differentiate yourself in the ways that are popular now, which is through building that brand up and the foundational strategy pieces that kind of go in part.

Ben Scandlen (16:36.206)
Yeah, I mean, I think you are raising, I mean, and you and I have discussed this before, but I mean, there are certain agencies out there who have built a brand that is working for them. And it's not even, and I'll say like, you know, some of these agencies like, they've built this like really compelling brand that people that resonate with people and people are like referring them. But I have come in as a consultant as a following up on their work. And I'm like, it's not that good. And so that's the hard thing for as an agency or.

owner and someone who really wants their customer to be successful is like when you see that situation where it's like people are signing up for this, not based on the quality of their work, but the brand they built. That's, I mean, I don't like that because it's, because you, I do, I mean, I fundamentally want the customers to be successful and to see these things. And I'm sure you've run into this a million times too.

is that you come in and you're like, what were they doing? Like this isn't, I mean, they're just running a very basic playbook and just, and, and relying on their brand. And so that's painful. and I think, you know, if we see those situations, we need to, within this space be like, not, I mean, maybe not call out individual brands, but, and I think you do a great job of this actually in is calling out the instances of like, what, what's the checklist to make sure that's not happening to you as an organization.

And so I think that's important to say, look, there are best practices here. You need to make sure that the agency or the consultants you're working with are engaged in a way that's meaningful. And you're not just relying on the brand that they bring to the table.

Ian (18:22.318)
I like that answer a lot. Thanks, Ben. Those are really two really good answers. I want to get into the three questions that we ask all our guests.

Ben Scandlen (18:29.646)
They are answers. I don't know if they're real.

Ian (18:35.97)
They're good to me. I mean, I'm learning. It's awesome to do these podcasts with people that I can learn about. I can learn things while I'm doing the podcast and then I just know that I'm pretty knowledgeable in the marketing space. So if there's anyone that's even just lower than me or just getting started, they're going to find this really useful too. So that's what's really cool for me to do these podcasts. So I liked your answers, man.

Ben Scandlen (18:59.758)
All right, thanks, man.

Ian (19:04.686)
Cool. So let's get into the three questions I ask all my guests. And the first one is kind of for fun, but it's also very serious at the same time, which is what do you think the most overrated marketing strategy or marketing tactic is right now in 2024?

Ben Scandlen (19:24.078)
Well, if anyone's ever seen one of my videos, I think there's a lot of them. Like I was saying before, unfortunately marketers are very prone to chase after the latest thing. And there's people out there good at selling. This is the latest thing. I mean, if you're out there on LinkedIn, someone right now, I'm sure there's a post right now talking about the latest thing that everyone has to be doing or you're not going to be successful. But there was another latest thing last year and there's another latest thing last, and that, that actually drives me insane because it's like,

people are putting time and resources into this and it's not validated. And so I think that the thing about it is, and some of it is good advice, but what I like to emphasize is if you're gonna, and I'll get into the specific thing in a minute, but if you're gonna like go after a specific tactic or strategy, I mean, I think there's a few things you definitely need to consider is one is, when whoever's sharing it, are they sharing the data? You know,

based, like how are they making that recommendation? Are they sharing the actual data of that recommendation? And do they share like the specific details of their methodology? I mean, those are two requirements before any marketer goes pursues a new strategy. And I think if you use that, and then the final thing is, has it been replicated by others? If you use that framework for deciding like, what am I going to pursue next? I think you'd be surprised at how often those three things are lacking in terms of the recommendations. Like you don't see that a lot.

And then the other thing about this in terms of like what's overrated, there is some good advice out there. That's like bad advice, depending on your situation. And I think a great example of this is like you hear all the time on LinkedIn is that like you have to AB test to see if there's any, if you're driving incremental revenue based on your, on your marketing tactics or strategies. So AB test to find incremental revenue. And that sounds great. I mean, if you're working for a huge company that's driving millions of visitors and you know, doing it.

hundreds of deals a month, like that works. But if you're talking about like mid -size, you know, under 50 million ARR SaaS company, AB testing to incremental revenue just doesn't make any sense. Like I posted something about this the other day, like you and with actual examples from, you know, previous clients' data. And to AB test to incremental revenue, it was going to take them like 60 years. Like who wants to hang around for 60 years to see if you get to significance on the test?

Ben Scandlen (21:47.47)
So that's an example of, yes, that's good advice. That's a good strategy or tactic. But you have to make sure you, when you're looking at these things, to make sure it aligns with the size of your organization, the category you're in. All right, so that's a long way of saying there is definitely overrated tactics out there. But I think the most overrated thing, and this is probably going to be a little bit surprising, is the demand generation. I've...

Fundamentally, I've talked about this for years, actually before there was like a lot of conversation about this was that I just don't think as marketers, we can create demand. I mean, I think we can meet needs that people already have, but, and I think the challenge with demand generation is, and I'm not talking about like semantics, like I'm actually okay. A lot of people are not okay with this, but I'm okay with using the term demand generation as a proxy for like,

Performance marketing like that doesn't bother me some people get really upset about that, but that doesn't bother me so much But I think if you go through and think I can create demand with anyone at any time then you're gonna make mistakes as a marketer Because only a small percentage of your buyers are actually in market have the need are actually looking for a solution right now But if you go to them and say look, I know I can create demand and you immediately say hey Do you want a demo like that's not a good experience? That's not a good experience for the prospect and it's not gonna work

And so I think the mindset that you can go create demand from, from anyone is, is probably the most overrated thing. Again, it's not, I don't get so caught up in the semantics of it, but that concept that, you know, someone's just waiting there and just waiting to hear that they have a need for a new CRM. Like that's not, that's not happening. Like they have a need. they're going to decide they're going to start the buying process and then you want to be there. You want to make it as easy as possible for them to buy it.

Ian (23:31.646)
Thank you.

Ben Scandlen (23:40.43)
But getting them from these different stages, getting them to be an active buyer, just based on your marketing efforts, you're not going to generate that demand from them. They already have a need.

Ian (23:55.182)
I love that answer. Mostly because I have a great follow -up for it. And that is simply, I 100 % agree with you. I think there are a ton of agencies out there and marketers out there that list demand generation as a service, and then say that they're going to run LinkedIn ads and Facebook ads to certain audiences. And these people are going to schedule a demo.

And that's the only campaign that they set up. And that's just wrong. That's just how it works. And I think that's what really separates an experienced agency owner from just someone who just got started is you have to understand the foundational strategy here, which is the marketing funnel and the buying funnel. And I think there's a few things I want to say here. So.

The stat of, I think it's 3 % of your market is looking for the solution. They are already problem aware. They're already aware of the solution they need, so now they're just looking for a brand to actually do that solution for them. That's 3%. Inside of our agency, we just call that demand capture because they're ready. They've raised their hand. They're ready to work with someone. Then the 97 % of the rest of the market, they are either...

Ben Scandlen (25:09.612)
Mm -hmm.

Ian (25:20.718)
not problem aware, they don't even know that this is a recurring problem with other businesses, so they don't know that there's solutions that exist for it, and they don't know about the solutions that exist. And so that's most of everyone else. So if you're going to do demand gen, you have to address those objections subtly through advertisements where these people are actually digesting content. And so there's actually this

Ben Scandlen (25:34.126)
right?

Ben Scandlen (25:47.958)
Mm -hmm.

Ian (25:50.206)
rule, it's Google's market research team coined this, I think it was like a year or two ago, maybe it was longer ago. And it was called the 7 -11 -4 rule. And it basically states that a prospect needs to engage with their brand for seven minutes, 11 different times on four different channels before they really know that you even exist, before they even really know that they maybe have a problem. And so that could be done in a lot of ways, but that's...

Ben Scandlen (26:13.836)
Mm -hmm.

Ian (26:20.078)
To me, demand gen is you have to be on at least four different platforms. You have to have varying forms of content that's short and long. And so I think I'm going a little bit in the weeds here, but I really like that you mentioned that because a lot of clients I talk to, a lot of marketers I talk to, they just talk about setting up LinkedIn ads campaigns and saying, choose the CTA of schedule a demo, and that's it. And it just doesn't work.

Ben Scandlen (26:48.174)
I mean, I think that's a tactical result of that mindset is that people think that's going to work and it's not. And I mean, and it sounds good. I guess you can sell it, but it's not going to work. So I think that's the idea. I totally agree. Like that's the tactical. And I do agree that like creating a brand, creating brand awareness, creating a distinctive brand that that resonates with people that they think about you when they're actually going to make a decision is, is really important aspect of this.

Unfortunately, I mean, to your stat from Google, it's like, it doesn't, it's not, you're not going to see like the immediate benefits of it. And that's where I think like people get a hard time, like selling this concept is like, I want to see growth tomorrow. And you're like, well, I can give you growth. I can give you significant growth, but not all these things are going to take effect tomorrow. Like it's going to take time to build out this awareness, to build out. And I mean, another critical thing in B2B SaaS.

We talk about this a little bit more too, is the idea of trust is, and because a lot of B2B SaaS buyers are buying defensively, they're buying out of fear because these decisions have huge impacts. It's their individual career, whether they can, you know, are they going to, you know, are they going to get promoted? Are they going to get fired? So it's the individual impact, but it's also the impact within their business. And so.

building up this trust is like really critical. And so you can't short, I mean, you can't shortcut that. And in fact, being too aggressive, just putting out a, you know, request a demo in front of someone who has no idea who you are can actually, you know, be negative in terms of trust. What you really want to do is build out this brand, build awareness and build that trust.

Ian (28:30.254)
I love that. I love that. So let's get into underrated. What do you think is the most underrated marketing strategy or tactic right now in 2024?

Ben Scandlen (28:42.03)
Yeah, I mean, I think it ties back to what I was saying earlier. I mean, I love that companies, I mean, yeah, companies are getting, and marketers are getting back more to some of these foundational elements. A couple of things I think are really underrated again, if you've ever seen what I talk about before is one is word of mouth and the two is storytelling. Like these are so foundational. In fact, I saw.

A post the other day and it was a, it was in response because Jeff Bezos has this quote, which is like your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And this person's response was like, well, they don't, people don't talk about brands when you're not in their room. So that's like a stupid quote. Essentially was the gist of it, but all the data shows that word about is like the number one driver of revenue and it's peer review. It's a, you peer recommendations like.

people are talking about brands all the time when you're not in the room. So to have that perspective is just not correct. And then you look at, I've done research on NPS and kind of from a customer satisfaction standpoint, it's under our growth standpoint, it's kind of questionable. But from actually leaving recommendations that are aligned with what their NPS score is, there's tons of data out there showing, if someone is a...

promoter, they go out and leave positive reviews about you. And so I think the challenge with word of mouth, which is like such a powerful tool for driving revenue is there's not anything where you can say, Hey, we had 10 word of mouth referrals yesterday and now we want to get 20. This is like the tactic we're going to do to do that. But I do think there's ways of being very intentional, like making it easy to allow people to refer you, creating experiences that people want to refer. So I think there's definitely a lot of.

opportunity. Again, it's not like a simple thing. It's not just like flip the switch and all of a sudden your word of mouth goes crazy. But I think companies can be intentional in terms of encouraging word of mouth, giving people, you know, ability to do that easier. I mean, I think you look at G2 or Captera, like they help companies enable, spread the word about those companies. And so I think there are tactics that can make it increase the amount of word of mouth traffic you get.

Ben Scandlen (30:59.726)
And it is just such a powerful mechanism.

Ian (31:05.038)
Yeah. I mean, word of mouth is just another one of those formats that kind of falls into that 7 -Eleven -4 rule that we just discussed a little bit. I mean, if someone's talking about your brand, that counts. I really like the kind of insight you kind of brought about G2 and the kind of public review system, third party verified reviews. I think that that really does go a long way. I think a lot of software companies don't focus on it enough.

Ben Scandlen (31:13.26)
again.

Ian (31:35.182)
And then instead they only want to turn on campaigns. They only want to send cold emails. But that public accreditation and making content and maybe even kind of similar of creating trust is to align your brand with someone else's. So if you're able, if let's say you're a really small SaaS that no one's heard of, and then you're able to maybe get a partnership integration with a larger SaaS like

that people have heard of before and then they start to associate your brand with that brand, that can go a really long way. And that's just all word of mouth really and partnerships. So I love, I think it's really underrated. I think that's a great.

Ben Scandlen (32:18.094)
Yeah, I didn't say, I mean, I think you also raised a great point, like going back to that referencing that Google stat, but also like how word of mouth plays in that. And I think this is something I see a lot is like people like, there's like two schools of thought here is like one, you have to advertise. Persistently for brand awareness. So you have to spend it. But I mean, a lot of companies like that was where I was going back to bad advice. Like if you're a startup SaaS company, you don't have a ton of money to spend on brand awareness.

But there are alternatives other than advertising to build a brand awareness. Like you're saying word of mouth, like developing like content that gets shared. Like there's other avenues here that are not as expensive as advertising to build brand awareness. And I think, or like developing exceptional product. I mean, you think about, you know, Tesla, like people talk about the Cybertruck all the time. And that's just through their product, not through their advertising. And so the, I think the key, the key here is that you don't need.

Building brand awareness, and to your point earlier, doesn't have to come through advertising. There's lots of ways to do it that are more organic and probably ultimately will have more benefits to you.

Ian (33:29.038)
Yeah, I love that. Cool, Ben. Last two questions, but the second to last is pretty important. I think mental health is something that's relatively underrated in the entrepreneurial space. Even though a lot of people talk about it, I don't think it gets enough. I just think that the entrepreneurial journey that people go on is really glamorized and you and I both probably know that

There's probably a lot more bad than there is good, or at least in my experience that's the case. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts on, how do you handle stress on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? Is there anything you do to really calm down or is there anything that you do to just kind of stay sane? I'm curious.

Ben Scandlen (34:22.638)
Yeah, man. That's a great question. I mean, I think, well, something that's critical for me is I have to get up early and plan out my day. And that involves like both like in reflecting on like what I accomplished yesterday, what I want to accomplish today, just my thoughts. And so that's really important to me in terms of managing stress. Obviously, I think exercise is like a game changer in terms of managing stress. I'll read something I actually find quite beneficial to.

Is that is just learning, like taking the opportunity to learn like what's out there, getting educated on things. I think something that adds a lot of stress, especially where we are is like operating in an environment that's unfamiliar. And so whatever you can do to learn and when you're operating in your area of expertise, people have much less stress. And so, you know, whatever you can do to educate yourself. And so you feel like familiar, you're not, it's not an uncomfortable situation, which adds stress.

then that would be beneficial to lowering your stress overall. And so I think just learning, and I think that, like I said earlier, like this is a great opportunity to learn what's going on. And so you're able to handle what comes at you.

Ian (35:36.462)
Yeah, I think honestly something that stuck out to me is learning, but preparation. I mean, there's a lot of anxiety before some meetings, certain sales calls, maybe just like this podcast. It could be a little anxiety inducing at times to get on a call with someone else and know that it's going to be kind of open to other people potentially in the future. So the best way you can do that is learn the ropes, learn and prepare.

I guess you could say is just to prepare for those meetings a lot more than you might expect. I was actually just listening to a podcast on my walk to work today and the person was talking about how for a 30 minute meeting, that's important, they've never done before, they've maybe never presented before, they will spend at least two hours preparing for the meeting. And then if it's an hour long meeting,

Ben Scandlen (36:07.566)
Thank you.

Ian (36:32.622)
and they've never done it before, they will spend at least four hours on preparing for the meeting. And I think this person was selling big things. I mean, they're like relatively high ticket services. But it's sort of like a paradigm shift for people like me who maybe I spend 20 minutes for an hour long meeting preparing. But this person is spending four times that.

Ben Scandlen (36:42.318)
Thank you.

Ben Scandlen (36:55.254)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That sounds like a better.

Ian (37:04.392)
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. That's kind of stuff you learn along the way and you realize you just don't know what you don't know, I think, Ben, is like the biggest thing.

Ben Scandlen (37:04.428)
Yeah.

Ben Scandlen (37:13.806)
Well, it's funny, I'm reading, not because I'm obsessed with Napoleon, but just by matter of technology, I'm reading two different books on Napoleon right now, and a big factor in his success was how much preparation he did. So that was a key thing. He would go out there and know just more than the opposing general he was going up against about the battlefield ahead of time. So that's a antidote that sort of supports your... I don't...

There is a no world. I will take four hours to prepare for an hour meeting, but it's still, I do agree, preparation is key.

Ian (37:53.71)
Yeah, that's awesome. I love the Napoleon anecdote too, that's funny.

Ben Scandlen (37:59.566)
I got a lot. Since I'm reading two, I got a good point.

Ian (38:01.138)
Alright then, so...

Ian (38:06.638)
Ben, let's talk about Mosaic Growth Solutions real quick. Can you give us the rundown of what your agency does and the kinds of people that you serve? That would be good for the audience.

Ben Scandlen (38:18.862)
Yeah, yeah, we're, no, that's good. So, for the almost past 10 years, we have been working where we've been consulting to, B2B SaaS companies almost exclusively. And like what we, we like to say, we're helping them close the growth gap. So like from where they are to their potential for growth. And the primary way we do that is start off with a comprehensive assessment of their current marketing efforts, how they stack up against the competitors, what they look like within the industry.

you know, look at their performance within their own funnel and then think about strategic opportunities. And all this is on top of just laying out that growth foundation. So what's their growth vision? Is there alignment? And so it really builds this layered approach to finding transformational growth for companies. Like I said, we primarily focus on B2B SaaS. I think the big thing, and we've evolved too in that we went through...

and, and, and became much more focused on this foundational aspect of growth. Cause we went through and looked at all of our clients and said, okay, which ones had transformational growth, which ones did okay, which ones struggled. And I think what we found was that these foundational elements were what was the key to driving this transformational growth. It wasn't like everyone's willing to do SEO, but some of, you know, some of these companies grew, you know,

whatever, 3X, 5X, but some of them, you know, had struggled to grow. And so, but even though they're all doing these sort of top of the funnel tactics, what we really found, it was the foundation that was the key to driving growth. So we went through and said, okay, we need to update our process. We need to develop this comprehensive marketing approach to build, you know, what people say as a flywheel effect upon this foundation. So that's what we do. Focus on B2B SaaS companies.

do this comprehensive assessment and then figure out ways to help them get from where they are now to where their growth potential is.

Ian (40:28.558)
Awesome. Yeah, and I know Ben, you talk a lot about the research and a lot of client stories on your LinkedIn. So I feel like a great place for people to reach out to you would be through LinkedIn. Is there any other places that you think that, you know, if someone wants to get ahold of you, what's a good way of getting ahold of you outside of LinkedIn?

Ben Scandlen (40:48.64)
they can go to our website. Mosaic mkt .com is probably the best way. Or yeah, definitely on LinkedIn. If you see, I post a daily video about the most interesting content I find out there. And so, but yeah, so I'm definitely out there on LinkedIn as well. So either our website or LinkedIn would be great.

Ian (41:12.142)
Awesome Ben. Well that's all I have for you today. It was an absolute pleasure to have you on. I think that I learned a lot and I know that our audience is also going to learn a lot. So it was awesome having you on Ben.

Ben Scandlen (41:18.306)
Ben Scandlen (41:24.332)
That was so good. Thank you. You did a great job, Ian. I really appreciate it. Great insights and great job guiding me through the interview. That's great.

Ian (41:36.07)
Thanks, Fed. Real quick, to our listeners, if you found this useful, be sure to leave a quick rating. It takes literally a second, but it helps out the podcast a ton. We're pretty new to this thing, so getting those quick ratings inside of Spotify really helps. With that being said, thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next podcast.

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